Veronica Rose: Birth Story

April 18, 2011

I am writing this birth story in hopes that I will be able re-read it several times and remember the moments the day my daughter Veronica Rose was born. Sometimes you are given the grace to take a step back and fully realize the value of that present moment, and how blessed you are to be living it. I have had moments like this on days such as my wedding day, the day my son was born, and days in between in every day life where you feel like you would do anything to just freeze the moment forever! It was the same the day Veronica was born. I haven’t been able to comprehend this little miracle of life yet, and maybe I never fully will, but I sure am grateful to God for allowing her to be a part of our family. I am have been eating up these first few precious days of life with her!
Well, as some of you know, this baby had me convinced she was coming early! I was having pre-labor signs three weeks before my due date and was 2cm dilated at my check-up. My guess was that she would be here about a week early. However, little miss was comfortable and content to keep us waiting until the very last minute, and arrived, just like her brother, on her due date! And not without a little prodding. The night before I consulted some friends and family, and tried all the tricks! Pineapple, long walk, hot baths, etc. etc…..well one of them or all of them worked!
That night around 2:15 am, I felt the first hint of a contraction. I wasn’t convinced yet, because my son’s started so strong. They were really mild and sporadic so I tried to continue to sleep. When I felt they were strong enough to pay attention to, I started timing them….still sporadic- about every 5 min, 10 min, 15min. I realize now though that I was having very light mini ones in between that I should have been counting…oops! I decided to wake hubby up to tell him I thought these were labor contractions, and he was up and ready for game time. He had left for school to get last minute things ready for the sub around 5:15 am. During this time (which was only about 15 minutes) I was running around the house in between contractions getting my son’s bag together to be dropped off with my sister and brother-in-law, and trying to remember if I had my toothbrush packed in my hospital bag:) I soon realized, my water was breaking, and this really was it (I know funny it took me a while to be convinced)! Right after that I noticed a big difference in the length and consistency of my contractions. They were coming every few minutes apart! I called my doctor, and told her I was pretty sure I was in full on labor and she directed me to go straight to the hospital. This is where it gets a little crazy!…
My sisters house and the hospital are within a mile of our house. We dropped my son off (who was more than happy to be going to his cousin’s house) and I cried as I kissed him goodbye. I knew it was the last kiss I would give him as my baby and before his little world would change. We drove into the ER side of the hospital and at this point the contractions were so strong and close together I had to huff and puff through one before I could walk through the parking lot and hurry into a wheel chair in the ER. They wheeled me right away into a room a little after 6am, put me in one of those hideous gowns, and hooked me up to all those fun wires;) After being checked, I was told I was already 5 cm dilated. They knew I was hoping for the epidural. The IV was hooked up and the epidural was called for……
During the waiting time, minutes seem to be very long periods of time. As I focused in to breathe through each contraction, I asked God for the strength to keep going through the pain. We had rallied prayers from our family and friends on our way to the hospital, and from this point through the end of the delivery, I could really feel them come through for me. Prayer is powerful! My husband (who was my complete hero this day), held my hand and coached me through the contractions as he knew my midwife had done with my first son. He even did the breathing with me, which totally relaxed me. (I asked him later how he knew to do this, and he said he saw a Cosby episode about it!… I about died! So cute!) He was my rock, and once more I was reminded why God made him for me…
My doctor was on her way, and I heard discussions among the nurses that I may be too late for the epidural already. You can imagine how I tried to register these words between contractions!! I didn’t have any energy to be angry or emotional, so I just continued to focus and get through the moment. After checking me again, the nurse said I was an 8-9 and 100% effaced…. this girl was coming fast! This was when I had my husband call my sister Maria to hurry on over. We had agreed to call her when I was close so she could take the delivery room photos for me (She is an amazing sister and mama of soon to be 3!).  My wonderful doctor arrived and explained the options to me. She was very encouraging that everything was progressing beautifully and if I chose to continue without trying for an epidural, it should go rather quickly. I was worried that trying to inject a spinal pain med at this point might be more trouble than it was worth since my contractions were so close together. I also was so exhausted at this point, that I just wanted it to be over with, and have my little girl in my arms. I knew I had the strength to go through with the birth without the epidural (again only with the grace of prayers) and I looked at my husband and told him, “I think I can do this.” I was given some minor meds to take the edge off of the pain of the contractions and proceeded forth. Yes the pain was unlike anything I had experienced, but it was not quite as horrific as the movies make it seem;) The thing is, you have an adrenaline like no other to get to the end of the battle! I knew I was about to meet my child! So, about 30 minutes later and 10 minutes of pushing, little Veronica Rose entered the world at 8:16 AM. 
Things had not gone according to plan, but I was so thankful for the way it turned out. It was quite an experience. This was the best victory I had every experienced in my life! It was like going through the anguish of a long uphill run and feeling the rush of crossing the finish line, except the joy floods your entire being. You have just been an instrument in bringing a new soul into the world, that God had created. The birth of my son and my daughter, and our children to come will be very different birth stories, but both very important moments in my life, where I feel like I am given a taste of heaven, and seen the face of God. 

“When we see the face of God we shall know that we have always known it. He has been a party to, has made, sustained and moved moment by moment within, all our earthly experiences of innocent love.” C.S. Lewis

Congrats if you made it to the end of this long summary! πŸ™‚  I am sure those who have had children have many different stories and experiences of birth… natural, c-section, epidural, etc…. and each beautiful in their own way. Would love to hear your stories!

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  • Teary-eyed. Thanks for sharing your blessing with us!

  • I read every word and had almost the exact same kind of story with my second- it went so fast- was 2 cm and within 30 minutes, I was 9..anyhow-loved reading little sweet Veronica’s story- what a precious gift. So so happy for you!! xoxo

  • Maybe it’s just that I’m pregnant (with our first little miracle), but your story had me in tears by the time I finished reading! Your family is beyond beautiful, and I’m sure someday Veronica will love reading all about her grand entrance. You are truly blessed, Anna! Thanks so much for sharing.

  • aw what a beautiful story Ana!! Our story is similar to yours..It was too late for the epidural and I was not happy about that, but now looking back I was glad I had Kaylee naturally:)

  • That’s awesome and I’m crying πŸ™‚ Three of my births were almost this same story – no time for pain meds and no choice! Fast, furious, painful and DONE. πŸ™‚ Congrats on your sweet princess and great job, Mama.

  • *Tears!* Beautiful story and beautiful Photos!

  • You are so blessed! And the pictures really do say a thousand words. They are beautiful as is your daughter. God is good!

  • So beautiful to read. Wow! We don’t have kids yet so I cannot fully understand but can see the love, excitement, panic, and all the emotions that comes with it. You are blessed with beautiful children!! Congrats!

    http://www.mrscapretta.com

  • Such a beautiful story. The joy shines through your words! Your pictures are incredible!

  • Anna, what a beautiful story and post! Am so glad all went so well for you. When i had my second son, he came so quick i almost gave birth on the parking-lot in front of the hospital, and once inside, everything went very fast – without epidural or anything, just breathing. My midwife and the doctor were astonished – and so was i, because i’m really afraid of pain!
    Isn’t having babies a miraculous thing?
    Sweet Veronica Rose is super-gorgeous! xox

  • I’m seriously wiping tears Anna!! This story was so precious and being a mother I can totally relate to the feelings of being handed your child for the first time and the overwhelming joy. She is so beautiful. You are truly blessed Anna! XOXO

  • I started tearing halfway through. You look AMAAAAZING during this entire process, I kid you not. Gorgeous mama and gorgeous baby! I love the pic with your husband ‘hugging’ Veronica. πŸ™‚

  • What a beautiful story! I love all the pictures, especially the one where your husband’s eyes look red with emotion as you’re both staring at your new addition. Such a sweet picture. Congratulations times a million!

    amy day to day

  • so precious! i hope that have beautiful pictures like this when i finally have a little one.

  • This totally made me tear-up Anna! I am so so happy for you and Gabe πŸ™‚ Veronica is absolutely beautiful, you are so blessed! Can’t wait to see you in a little over a month!

    xoxo

  • Thanks so much for sharing, Anna! Huge hugs to you and your little one!

  • what a beautiful story and LOVE all the photos!
    little veronica is such a little cutie!!

  • You made me cry! Seriously I’m sitting at my desk AT WORK in tears. She is so precious and so are you. Enjoy these moments with her and the pictures are beautiful!

  • Thank you so much for sharing!!!! I was just talking with a friend of mine who had a homebirth (her 3rd child and 1st at home). She too had completely different birth experiences with each child and almost sings about the wonder that natural childbirth can be.
    I don’t remember the pain. I just remember that it was THE MOST DIFFICULT thing I had ever done….EVER. Like climbing a mountain and not thinking I’d ever get to the top. But once at the top I jumped off and the rush…the high…the JOY of holding my baby was like nothing I’ll ever know outside of childbirth.

    Congrats to you. I am so excited for you.

    *and is it okay for me to say that I am proud of you?

  • She is gorgeous! Thanks for sharing your story and congratulations πŸ™‚

  • beautiful story! so happy for you. you are both gorgeous… congratulations!

  • Definitely teary-eyed… such a sweet story, and hearing each one like this never gets old! How can anyone NOT believe there is a magnificent God, looking at those sweet fingers and toes?! Congrats, she’s perfect!!

  • aw, loved the story; made me tear up a bit! the pictures in the delivery room are beautiful and i love how much your husband was there to help! congrats!! πŸ™‚

  • such an amazing story, Anna! what a victory for you — so many mommies-to-be aspire to have a natural birth (myself included…someday), and you did it!

    i have to admit, i am tearing up at the office after reading this. congratulations again to you and your family! what a beautiful baby girl you have

  • So beautiful, Anna. She truly is a gift from God. That end quote is perfect. Hope you’re having a great week…soaking up all the bows, smiles, pink and purple, and kisses (:
    xoxo

  • Oh Anna, what a beautiful story. And what an incredible feat to give birth naturally! Your sister’s photos really capture the moments!

  • what a lovely story…must admit got a little emotional. Thank you for sharing Anna!! xo

  • Precious photos and an excellent update. It’s so neat to see these intimate photos of you and your family of four together. Praise the Lord for your little girl!

  • Anna this story gave me tears. How beautiful πŸ™‚ Congrats to your gorgeous family!

  • i have never once even considered going natural… until i read this. so beautiful and inspiring. so proud of you and excited for you. what a beautiful family. i can’t wait to see what kind of birth God has planned for us. thanks for sharing your story – it is so encouraging. The lord is so dear.

  • So beautiful, Anna! You are a rock star for going through that without medication! I will definitely think of your story when someday I’m going through labor! I’ll pull from your strength!

  • You just had me tearing up! What an amazing story. Anna, you are so blessed!! Your family is beautiful. And hell-o, who looks that good in the delivery room. You are beautiful! And God is great!! : )

  • well, i’m glad to see i’m not the only one crying! anna, i’m so happy for you! i have a friend who had a similar birthing experience and went natural on accident. you stayed strong!! congratulations a million times. i can not way to see more photos and watch her grow!

  • Oh my goodness I just want to pinch those chubby wittle cheeks! Anna, I am so happy for you! This post made me tear up πŸ™‚ And ummm how can anyone be that gorgeous after going through a natural delivery? So jealous!

  • My dear! What a beautiful story and beautiful pictures (note to self: have someone with a camera). I can only imagine how wonderful Veronica will feel when she reads this years from now. You have definitely increased my baby fever! πŸ™‚ Such a precious girl you have and SO proud of you! You’re amazing for making it through that!

    *kate

  • This was so beautiful Anna!!! I am all teary-eyed. I hope one day to be blessed with bearing children. Thanks for sharing πŸ™‚

  • Ummm… absolutely amazing! What a wonderful story + even more wonderful to have it captured! Everyone looks so grateful, happy + beautiful.

  • oh anna! I’m in tears. Thanks for sharing. She’s amazing!

  • Beautiful story and photos. You are a rockstar! I’m taking photos of my niece’s delivery next month and I’m scared she’s going to come so fast I’ll miss it!

  • This made my morning Anna! Thanks so much for sharing this personal beautiful story. I , like everybody above me, read it through tears. It came at a much needed time for me too.
    Congrats and l’il Veronica is so stinkin’ precious with her cherub cheeks!

  • You have me in tears Anna… and I’m normally not a cryer! Such a beautiful story, beautiful family and beautiful photos.

    Thanks so much for sharing and enjoy your baby girl!

    xoxo
    Jenna

  • congrats!! what an amazing story! she is soo beautiful~ ok, i totally got teary eyed reading this anna! makes me want a little girl of my own!

  • That was a BEAUTIFUL Veronica Rose birth story!! The expression on yours and your husbands faces is priceless!! I know you’ll cherish this forever! Makes me ready for babies even more! πŸ˜‰ haha In God’s time!
    Congrats again on your beautiful baby girl and prayers are with you all, sweet friend πŸ˜‰

  • Congratulations!! Love her name…and your story is beautiful. I don’t have any children yet but now I know I might not need that epi.

  • So glad to hear you had a safe and happy delivery! Veronica is just beautiful and I can see from the pretty pictures how blessed you feel!

    From each of my child’s births I’ve definitely learned to trust God more! I’ve had natural childbirth everytime and I’m sure I could not have done it without Him!

  • I’ve heard that when you’ve already had one child the process of labor goes more quickly. Your story sounds like you already had a couple of kids!

    Thank you for sharing the experience. You are a very strong and brave woman! I don’t think I’d be able to do it without some form of pain reliever!

    Your daughter is so precious. God bless you and your sweet family!

  • Such a touching story Anna, and you were beautiful while bringing to the world your little one xo

  • wonder full. and the world is new again…welcome little veronica rose!

  • Such a beautiful story! You’ll be glad you wrote it. Lovely photos too!

  • How incredibly beautiful, Anna! Congratulations on your wonderful blessing!

  • She’s such a doll! Thanks for sharing this story–it’s beautiful! I’m so excited for you and your family!

  • Anna! Thank you SO much for sharing your story with us! I am absolutely beyond proud of you! What an experience! The same thing happened with me when I was in labour with kiddo #2 and I totally agree, it was/is one of the most powerful things I’ve ever experienced in my life! Love it, thank you! And really…I wish I looked that gorgeous after labour, you looked fab! Cheers and hugs!

  • She is beautiful!! Congratulations again. πŸ™‚

  • Congratulations! She is gorgeous πŸ™‚ One day hopefully soon, I wish to be a first time mom myself and your story was so sweet and touching!
    A huge congrats to you and your beautiful family!

  • Wow, Anna! What an amazing story! Some birth stories totally scare the pants off me – since I have not had a baby of my own – but yours sounded really encouraging! You’re seriously a champ! Warrior mama πŸ˜€ All those prayers worked miracles! Congratulations agian on the birth of your little princess, Veronica Rose!!! She is amazinggggg!! xooxox meg

  • anna, this brought me to tears! thank you so much for sharing!! what a beautiful gift..you are amazing!
    j.

  • She is so beautiful Anna! What a wonderful story and I’m so glad that it all turned out so well. congrats to you both xo

  • Congratulations, lady friend πŸ™‚ She’s a beautiful little girl, and I am so happy she came so easily for you! Enjoy your time with her!

  • Yes, I cried reading your post! I agree about those moments time seems to stop for just long enough to take a breath and realize how amazing that second is. She is beautiful as is your story! Thanks for sharing!

  • I love your story and your pictures are amazing! I am so glad that everything went well!

  • Ohhh my goodness she is beautiful, and why do I tear up with these stories?! Great job mama!!!

  • I’m so happy for you Anna! It’s so wonderful to write your story while it’s fresh so you can always relive it later {and draw strength from what you found out you are capable of!). She is just gorgeous, she looks like a little doll!

  • Congrats…. this story just brought tears to my eyes…. She is beautiful and get some rest.

    xxx
    CEO

  • Congrats! beautiful story.

  • Oh, Anna, Veronica Rose’s birth story is so beautiful! I have tears in my eyes right now. I love that phrase “the joy floods your entire being.” I look forward to experiencing that moment for myself someday.

  • What a beautiful story Anna, it brought back lots of similar memories. You made me all teary!.. πŸ™‚

  • Awh. Thanks for sharing. πŸ™‚

  • oh anna, what an amazing story. the pictures are precious. congrats on a very, very, very beautiful baby girl!!!!

  • totally teared up reading this! the pictures are absolutely beautiful and to have this written down will be such a great way to remember this joyous event! SO happy for you and your family Anna πŸ™‚

  • This is so beautiful, Anna! Left me with tears in my eyes! Congrats on your beautiful little girl!

  • Wow thank you for sharing this! What a crazy and awesome turn of events (and 30 minutes of labor at the end, if only!) Congratulations on beautiful Veronica Rose!

    xoxo,
    Chic ‘n Cheap Living

  • What a sweet baby girl! I love that your husband knew what to do from the Cosby Show. Funny!

  • congrats!!!! love the stroy of the pics.

  • your story is beautiful and touching ( it made me cry a lot). congrats on being brave and sharing this moment. the more I read your blog the more I admire you πŸ˜‰ all the best to you and your family.

  • ok first off this is crazy because i JUST posted my little girls birth story too! i had no clue you posted yours! haha i swear i wasn’t copying you ; )

    2nd could you be any more gorgeous?! i WISH i looked like that when i gave birth! what a beautiful story. go you for pushing her out natural and these pic’s are just amazing. all of them. i can’t even pick a favorite. congrats to you my dear friend! xo

  • Oh Anna, what a wonderful documentary of this blessed moment in time!! Thank you so much for being so intimate with us, this totally made my day.

    Love the story, love the photos, love how proud and loving you all look.

    Congrats again sweetie, I am thrilled beyond belief for your family.

    xoxo Diana

    PS. I keep voting for you for the “Top 25 Moms”… is that a totally unfair advantage? LOL. /joke I really want you to win it!!

  • Your daughter is going to love reading this story for herself one day. Congratulations to you all. She is absolutely beautiful! xoxo

  • I’m so glad I came across your blog. This is a beautiful story and a blessing to read. (also, I’m glad to know it’s not quite as horrific as the movies. :D)

  • Wow, what a story! She’s gorgeous. Thanks for sharing Anna!

  • Wow, this is such a beautiful birth story! You had me captivated! I have always loved watching A Baby Story on TLC and reading your birth story was like watching a great episode! Congratulations on your sweet, sweet bundle of joy. She is just beautiful! God is so good! πŸ™‚

  • congrats! she is BEAUTIFUL!!! i’m in love with the name too!

    hope mama & baby are doing well!

  • i got a little teary-eyed reading your story. so beautiful! what a beautiful name too! i agree that prayer is such a powerful thing. i’ve been praying that my labor and delivery in about 4 more months will be an easy and smooth one! also, i pray that you recover quickly, and of course… congratulations on your new little miss coming to this world!!!

    xo, ivana

  • This is beautiful. One of my biggest regrets is that I didn’t take any pictures or video of the birth of my little one. Sometimes you can’t see beyond your pain. Thank you for sharing.

  • I really have tears welling up in my eyes. I am so proud of you. God is amazing, and never puts on us more than we can bare. You are so strong, and I’m so happy to hear everything is OK.

    Baby Veronica is absolutely beautiful. Your sister got some great shots! Can’t wait to watch her grow.

    xoxo

  • I just cried. This was beautiful and you wrote it so well! Congratulations on your new little girl! God has blessed you!

  • anna, thank you so much for sharing your birth story. i was completely absorbed with every word of it! it’s so touching and written with such honesty. congrats again on your new beautiful baby!

  • Anna I haven’t blog as often lately but I had in the back of my mind ‘Oh has Anna had her baby yet?’ and I am so happy (I am crying over here) to read your history and to know that everything went well. Yes, prayers are so powerful and yes I made through the whole post, and love it every bit of it! I do not have kids yet but you just made me even more sure that I want to be a mommy – hopefully soon! Congrats with the precious addition to the family and wish you all the best my friend!

    http://acasadava.blogspot.com

  • Such a beautiful story!! This will be such a precious memory to have πŸ™‚

  • Such a beautiful and loving recap of this most special life moment Anna! I couldn’t be happier for you guys. Little Veronica Rose is such a little petal! God bless her!!! And your strength!

    Katy πŸ™‚

  • oh i enjoyed reading this so much, it’s the perfect blend of honesty and awe – I’m sure you did beautifully and your husband looks so happy. That Cosby episode is a good one…

  • Ohmyword! Lovely story.beautiful children. Love it all!

  • beautiful story and a gorgeous baby girl! congratulations to you and your sweet family.

  • Anna,

    the way you’ve documented this memory is beyond words. it’s beautiful and one that when Veronica’s old enough i’m sure she will cry deeply and lovingly over. your writing, the words you chose and the way you harmonized them into this piece is causing tingles from my feet all the way up to the top of my head. waves of goosebumps wash over me and tears fill my eyes. i know i don’t “know” you but all the same i am thrilled to no end about this share you’ve opened up with.

    the part about kissing Gabriel and what that meant for you touched me so. then i read the Cosby Show reference and knew the exact episode he was referring to!!!! so awesome, i lived on that show growing up, Heathcliff rocks!!!! the photos of you and Veronica and the three of you are treasures. many happy continued wishes. ♥

  • Such a beautiful mom and baby & a touching story. Someday I hope to have a story like this. Maybe with less pain? πŸ™‚

  • Thank you so much for sharing! Such a beautiful and heartfelt account: your love for your sweet children is more than palpable.

  • ugh gosh Anna. I dont know how i missed this post before?? This is incredible. and seriously, you look AMAZING. like, what the heck? that cant be fair.

  • the brother-sister photo is too cute for words, all these photos are so beautiful!

  • i’ve been out of town, but am just now catching up to this. CONGRATULATIONS! what a beautiful little girl, and you are one amazing lady. i knew you would look hot in your labor pics. i have to say, i totally called that. πŸ˜‰

    congrats!! so so happy for you. πŸ™‚

  • Thank you so much for sharing the details of this amazing, life-changing experience with us.

  • Anna,

    I have been out of the blog world for a few days and have just caught up on your beautiful story just now — Congrats and this makes me hopeful, ecstatic and excited for the time I someday become a mother!

    Sending you and your beautiful new addition lots of love xoxoxox

  • Anna, Congratulations!! She is gorgeous. I’m so glad to hear that both of you made it safe & sound. Hooray for new babies!

  • I’ve been saving this post for a quite time to read it with full attention πŸ˜‰ Can’t believe you went trough it without an epidural, you are a rock! And Veronica is such a little angel, what a beautiful blessed gift God has given you. Thanks so much for sharing your birth story, as I read yours I lived mine in my mind and almost cried!
    Congratulations and many many blessings!!

  • I’ve been saving this post for a quite time to read it with full attention πŸ˜‰ Can’t believe you went trough it without an epidural, you are a rock! And Veronica is such a little angel, what a beautiful blessed gift God has given you. Thanks so much for sharing your birth story, as I read yours I lived mine in my mind and almost cried!
    Congratulations and many many blessings!!

  • I’ve been saving this post for a quite time to read it with full attention πŸ˜‰ Can’t believe you went trough it without an epidural, you are a rock! And Veronica is such a little angel, what a beautiful blessed gift God has given you. Thanks so much for sharing your birth story, as I read yours I lived mine in my mind and almost cried!
    Congratulations and many many blessings!!

  • Anna! I’m so happy for you and your growing family. She looks beautiful. Congratulations!

  • Anna, I know I’m super late on this, but I want you to know how excited I am for you! You are such a sweet mom, and I can just tell from interactions with you that you are a really genuine person. I hope things are going well with you and your new little girl. You’ll have to give me advice on having 2 πŸ™‚

  • ooh that picture of your son and your new baby girl is just precious! i’m so happy for you all! my birth story is almost the opposite (in the end we have our beautiful son, but i had planned on having him in a birth center with only midwives and no meds, and ended up a cesarean in the hospital), so i love hearing about your tremendous victory! especially since it wasn’t planned… birth is kinda like that. life is kinda like that. πŸ™‚ xo, mama!

  • MAybe a little late, but congratulations with this beautiful miracle. It reminds me of our little miss, born the 10th of march this year.
    God bless!

  • What a beautiful story to share – thank you. I just saw this posting and clicked on it and was so glad to read. I had my first (and only as of yet) naturally and it was a battle to the end, but a victorious one and it is by the grace of God that he arrived so amazingly, into my arms. As difficult as it was, as phenomenal of an experience it was as well. He’s my angel from up above.
    I love that quote by C.S Lewis, he’s one of my favorite writers.

    Thanks for sharing –
    xo Emily

  • Aww this is amazing! I am in complete tears after reading this. Such a perfect little gift from God

  • […] were only 4 minutes apart. I thought it was really strange, but I knew if it went anything like Veronica’s birth, that I had better respond […]

  • […] A look back at her birth story, first birthday, and 2nd […]

  • […] up in a paced and peaceful delivery post epidural. Veronica came quicker than expected and without the ability to choose medication. If I had any sort of plan in place, it never would have happened because of the nature of both […]

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